Podcast Networks 101 w/ Jeff Umbro

Meet Jeff Umbro

Jeff Umbro is the founder and CEO of the Podglomerate, a podcast network that supports creators through marketing, ad sales, and distribution. He also hosts the show Podcast Perspectives, where he explores the business side of podcasting. With years of experience and dozens of network relationships under his belt, Jeff is the go-to guy for understanding the real benefits (and trade-offs) of podcast networks.

Links

• Show Notes Sidekick⁠ — My tool to help you name episodes, write show notes, blog posts, and get promo ideas in minutes!
• Friendly Podcast Guide on Instagram⁠
• The Podglomerate⁠ — Jeff’s podcast network
• Podcast Perspectives⁠ — Jeff’s podcast
• Podchaser⁠ — A helpful tool for researching podcasts and networks

Unedited transcript of the episode:

 If you’ve been in the podcasting world for more than about 2.3 seconds, you’ve probably heard of podcast networks, but I can almost guarantee that you have some clarifying questions about podcast networks,

because I get quite a few questions about what podcast networks are, or if they’re a good fit for a certain type of show and other questions like that. Luckily, my guest today is the perfect person to answer all of your podcast network questions. Hi, I am Andy Smiley, your friendly podcast guide. I help you create and grow a podcast that is fun and fulfilling without burning you out.

I share tips, stories from my own journey and insights from podcasters I admire. For this bonus episode, I chatted with Jeff Umbro. He’s the founder and CEO of the Podcast Network Pod Glomerate and is also the host of the show Podcast Perspectives.

I chatted with him to get all of your podcast network questions answered. And as a reminder, if you only have the capacity to implement one thing at the end of the episode, I’ll tell you what that one thing should be so you don’t feel overwhelmed trying to figure out where to start. And

before I introduce you to Jeff, I need to tell you about the part of podcasting I used to thoroughly despise, and that is writing show notes. I dreaded it, like avoid it until the last minute. Hope no one notices that they’re barely there. Kind of dread, but then I realized I could actually do something about it, not just for me, but for you too.

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turn those show notes into a blog post, and get social media ideas to promote the episode all in five minutes or less. No more staring at a blank screen or pasting in a transcript. That sounds like a robot. It sounds like you just faster and better. It’s $49 one time payment, lifetime access.

No subscriptions, no overwhelm. Just one more thing off of your podcasting plate. So if you’re a mom podcaster with way too much on your to-do list, click the link in my show notes and let show note sidekick handle the boring stuff. You focus on the fun parts, sidekicks. Got the rest,

okay, now onto my conversation with Jeff. I knew he would be the perfect person to explain what a podcast network is because it used to just mean a group of shows sharing ads or marketing efforts. Now it’s more complicated.

 Most of the time when somebody wants to join a network, it is for that like shared resource allocation. So if you launch a show, you want to, get help to, get your show in front of more people, to sell more ads to, maybe remove some of the production burden from yourself and your team.

Uh, and there are networks that will do that, but because of the changing macroeconomic conditions of podcasting, it just looks very different than it did at one point. It’s funny ’cause the, the idea of a podcast network has both stayed the same over the years and evolved a little bit. traditionally the idea is that a network is a collection of shows that can pull their resources in order to. Grow market, uh, distribute and monetize their their properties.

Um, there are power in numbers. If you’re able to go to a sales agency with multiple shows, then like oftentimes that’s easier than selling just one. Um, today the idea, I feel like has transformed a little bit and what people traditionally think of as a podcast network is now broken out into like four or five different things, so there are now service companies that will do all of this stuff for hire or in exchange for like a future share of revenue. There are companies that I would call, like IP companies that are trying to, uh, front the costs on different podcasts in order to like reap some of the rewards down the line.

There are folks that I would call sales agencies that might have some or none in terms of like marketing help for a show, but we’ll go and like approach different agencies and advertisers on your behalf. Um, in all of those, I feel like it grouped together and called Podcast networks. And now they’re all kind of very different things that all still technically count as podcast networks, but are are a little bit different than what you may have seen way back when and then what you saw way back when.

Like that all still exists. There are still plenty of organizations that will help with production, marketing and monetization on your behalf.

Okay, so Jeff walked us through what podcast networks are, or maybe what they’ve evolved into, and sure, they can help you monetize, offer, cross-promotion, or feature your show in their newsletter or socials. But before you get starry-eyed about what a network could do for you.

Your podcast, Jeff says, there’s one overlook question that’s way more important to ask first.

Is this an organization that I, I want to work with and that I like? And that to me is like the biggest and most undervalued. Uh, it’s very easy to hear a lot of things that, that you like, when you’re talking to folks, and sometimes it just doesn’t shake out that way. So like when you’re talking to networks

I would always ask for like examples or case studies of what they’ve been able to do in the past. Most of the good ones will be able to share that. Most of the good ones will also tell you that they can’t guarantee any results, but like, here’s what we’ve done in the past. So that’s a big piece of it is just like, you know, making sure they’re like-minded folks, making sure that the values are aligned.

We have a lot of folks that will come to conglomerate and, um. Maybe they’re not quite at the point where it makes sense to join a network for any number of reasons. Because on the same note where you wanna make sure that you’re looking for a network that can help you to grow, to monetize you want to be able to make sure that you’re adding value to that network as well.

So maybe your show is early and maybe it’s not very large, which is not always a deal breaker. But sometimes is maybe, uh, you, you haven’t quite found like your niche or your voice yet. These are all things that like sometimes the network can help with and sometimes you, you just need to kind of do more before you consider joining one.

So once you’ve wrapped your head around what networks are and how to evaluate them, the next big question is, am I even ready for one? Jeff gives us a way to figure that out.

So most of these networks are looking for shows that have a certain scale in order to make sure that it’s worth their time. Uh, some of the bigger networks that you’ve, that you’ve heard of, are often looking at like, total downloads per episode of a show.

And some of them wanna see like over a hundred thousand downloads in episode. Some of them want to see 50,000 downloads in episodes. Some are down at like 30, some are at 10. Uh. I would say like real value on locks when you’re around 10,000 unique downloads per episode.

But you can monetize any show at any scale using something like programmatic revenue. Or there is such instances where you have like an extremely niche show that’s looking for. I don’t know, like graphic designers or something, and you’ve found a thousand people that listen to every episode. Like I’m sure Adobe would be really interested in those thousand people.

So it does work at smaller scales, especially programmatically, but, um, it’s hard to put a number on it and that number changes over time. But I would say, uh. The money becomes like somewhat real around like 50,000 downloads a month or 10,000 downloads an episode, and then the number becomes very like, you know, valuable and, and able to like support the show when it’s at like double or triple that.

Whew. I know that was a lot. So if you’re sitting there wondering, okay, but now what? Don’t worry. I asked Jeff to give us the next step if we feel ready to join a podcast network,

So the first step is to do your research, uh, and look up all of the networks that, you might be interested in joining. Uh, find their contact information, which is 99% of the time gonna be on their website.

And I should, you know, one more thing in terms of doing research, um, there are a lot of podcast databases out there that you can utilize. So like Pod Chaser is a great one. And you can just pop on there and type in the name of, a show that, you think is similar in affinities to, to what you’re doing, and you can see like, you know, who works on that show.

Uh, oftentimes you can see the email associated with it, which will many, many times be like the network email. So you can get a lot of information that way. I. Uh, but once you’ve discovered like who you want to reach out to, write up an email, you know, make it short. Put some bullets in it and just say, hi, I’m interested in, potentially joining your network for ad sales help or for marketing help, or whatever it is.

Uh, here is my show. Here is a link to my show. Here is some information about my show. Here are some big guests that have been on my show. Here’s how many downloads I’m seeing per episode, over 30 days. Here’s how many downloads I’m seeing per month. My show is hosted on this platform. This is what I am interested in doing.

I know it sounds like a lot, some people will say that’s a lot. Some people will say that’s not enough. But those are the first questions that these networks are probably going to ask you. And so if you come prepared and preemptively answer those questions, then it will be really helpful for them to kind of suss that out and understand if this is gonna be relevant to like what they’re looking for.

And some of them will even have like a form that you fill out on their website that asks all of these questions.

Totally. Okay.

Yeah,

And I think, and I really like that you. The idea of like answering the first questions that they’re gonna ask you. That just shows that you really wanna be there,

right? That you want, that you’re like trying to be there. Instead of just throwing out an email being, hi, I wanna be on your network.

You can be like, I’ve done some research, I know what your network is about. I, I feel like we would be a good fit when you put that extra effort in. I feel like it. Puts you to the top of the pile, even if

maybe you end up not being a good fit, at least they’re gonna like read your email, right?

a hundred percent. It, it just shows like, you know, the, the minimum viable effort, we get a lot of emails from people who have ideas for podcasts, and what I often tell them is like, go make an episode. Because that requires work.

And you know, like if somebody’s going to ask me for my time to evaluate what they’re doing, then I’m gonna ask them to make sure that they’re putting in at least as much effort as I am,

and once you’ve done your research and started reaching out to networks, the conversation actually begins with those networks. So what should you actually ask them? Jeff has some ideas for you.

What is the exact thing or things that this network will do for you? Uh, and many times they’ll tell you like, we will put your show in front of advertisers looking for, shows and properties to buy ads on. Um, and that’s what I would consider a sales agency. And that’s fine if that’s all that you’re getting.

Uh, it’s just sometimes people come in with the expectation that there’s more. The second question I would ask is. Um. Do I still own my show? Or, or what does that like value exchange look like? Um, and you know, 99% of the time you should still own your show. So make sure you’re paying attention to that.

And there’s a whole conversation about like what ownership means and what it includes in terms of specific assets. Uh, and then the third question I would ask is, what am I getting from this relationship and, and how does that align with my goals? And frankly, you need to sit down, write your goals, come up with KPIs to measure them, and, and you should do that before you have any conversations with, some of these folks that may help you with these different things. So,

Definitely. Okay. And those don’t sound too scary.

Those questions aren’t too overwhelming. So I feel like, I feel like we could do that. We, meaning like me and my listeners,

pretty easily, like that doesn’t feel too overwhelming.

For sure. And, and there’s a thousand questions that are like subsets of each of those. But yeah, at a base level, like you just need to understand like what is the value exchange? Like what are you actually getting from this and what are you giving up?

As I was wrapping up my conversation with Jeff, I had to ask him about his biggest piece of advice for podcasters when it came to podcast networks, and his advice was a bit of a repeat, but that’s how important it is.

I think the biggest piece of advice is just to like, and I know I’m a broken record, but just to understand like what you want out of that relationship. Um. Maybe when you sit down and you put it on paper, a podcast network is not actually the answer to, to what you want, you know?

‘Cause it’s a lot of work, uh, for the network and for the show to like transition to that new relationship. And most of the time, like it’s a great thing, but not always. And like you can save yourself a lot of headache if you can answer that question in a different way. So,

I love

that. I’ve noticed that. When I go to podcast conferences and stuff like that, podcast networks are like the end all, be all. Like that’s the goal is to get on a podcast network. And what I’ve noticed is sometimes it’s just not the best fit.

Sometimes it’s just better to be an indie and just have

like a community in a different way,

but you just kinda have to sit down and be like, okay, so what are my priorities and what do I need and how, how? Is the best way to make that happen.

Well, I mean the, just to illustrate that point, the Glomerate has currently about 40 shows on, on its network and. Uh, and some of them have been with us for seven or eight years at this point. Uh, but every year there’s two or three that decide that they’re gonna go elsewhere or leave in general.

And, and they all have their reasons for it. And it’s a good thing because it means that like we’re constantly evolving and everything and, it shouldn’t be for everyone. And also like if it’s a great fit, then like there is no better relationship.

We have a show that we’ve been with for seven years that. Uh, it’s not that large, you know, it’s probably around like 10,000 downloads a month. And it’s been sold out for six years. One of the guys on the team over there, actually, a few years ago for the holidays, he sent me a big glomerate neon sign.

And, uh, it is my favorite like, piece of, of decorative anything. My fiance won’t let me hang it up, but, uh. But I love it and like it makes me so happy every time I see it. And, uh, and that came from this relationship that like on paper I should have said no to, you know? Uh, and I know that’s a silly example, but, um, but sometimes you just gotta go with it because it’s what you want to do or it’s what your gut tells you to do.

So my, that’s my piece of advice. Pay attention to the numbers, understand what you’re asking for. And also every once in a while do a Hail Mary. So.

I love it.

That’s awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you

so much for being on the show today. This has been a delight and I know that so many of my listeners are gonna be like, thank you, Andy, for finally doing this episode.

You got it. And, and feel free to ask any questions over email and, and I’m happy Andy to come back if you ever want, uh, and like truly appreciate you, you having me on. This was really fun.

It was Thank you. Thank you.

Isn’t Jeff a wealth of knowledge? I’m so glad I got to pick his brain about podcast networks.

So here’s your next step, especially if all this feels a little overwhelming before you even reach out to a podcast network, pause and figure out, is this even the right move for me? And if it is, then do the research and reach out to networks that genuinely align with your values and your podcasting goals.

If you have a podcasting friend who’s been spinning her wheels trying to figure out if joining a network is worth it? Would you send her this episode? I think it could save her a ton of time and stress. Thanks for listening to this bonus episode, and I’ll be back releasing weekly episodes this fall when season four starts on September 2nd.

I hope you have a marvelous summer.