Creative Podcast Marketing Strategies w/ Hayden Gray

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Unedited transcript of the episode:

 I love fantasy books, so of course I listen to a podcast called Fantasy Fan Girls. This show deep dives into romantic books and has grown so quickly. It makes me ridiculously happy for them. When I was at podcast Move. Back in August, I ran into Hayden Gray, the producer for Fantasy Fan Girls.

I did my best to keep my fangirling to a minimum and asked if he’d be on my show, and he said yes. Hi, I’m Andy Smiley, your friendly podcast guide and the podcast coach for women who want to grow their shows without burning out. I share practical podcast tips, stories from my own journey and wisdom from some of the smartest podcasters out there.

Hayden is definitely one of those smart podcasters, and today you’ll hear our conversation about both traditional and more creative ways to grow your podcast. And if you start feeling overwhelmed, don’t worry. I’ll share one simple next step at the end of the episode to help you keep the ball rolling.

But before we dive in, I have to tell you about my favorite way to grow a podcast Pinterest. I don’t have time to chase algorithms between driving kids everywhere, running my business and reading fantasy books way past my bedtime. I needed a marketing strategy that didn’t depend on posting every day, so I went Instagram optional and leaned into Pinterest.

And now my pins keep working for me for months. One of them has more than 7,000 views and still brings in new listeners every week. If you wanna see if Pinterest could do the same for your show, grab my free two minute is Pinterest write for me checklist. You’ll know in just a couple minutes if Pinterest is worth your time. The link is in the show notes. All right, let’s dive into my conversation with Hayden Gray, producer of one of my favorite fantasy fan girls.

 I am so excited to have Hayden on the podcast today.

He is the producer and the sanity manager for one of my very favorite podcasts, fantasy Fan Girls. So this is a huge treat and fantasy Fan Girls is not only a really great podcast, but they have their marketing down pat. So I’m really excited to dive into how they’ve been able to grow their show and yeah, all of the fun things.

So Fantasy Fan Girls has grown really fast. I am so happy for you. It makes me so happy every time you guys reach a new goal or like get more followers or more downloads, it just makes me so happy. And I’m wondering, what do you credit in helping the show grow so quickly?

Yeah, I mean, first of all, it had nothing to do with me. Um, I didn’t join Nicole and Lexi until October of 2023, and they launched the show in early September of 23, so about a month before I came on. And honestly, and what’s interesting about this answer is it’s not gonna work for everybody. Um, but really what they did that I think kind of like.

Gave them a built-in audience from day one was they released social clips, uh, about episode one before they even launched the podcast. And, uh, for anyone who’s not familiar with the show, the first series that they covered was Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yaros, which had just recently come out and was just like this crazy sensation across, uh, book.

Um, there weren’t many people who were, I mean, people were obviously talking about it, but there wasn’t a deep dive podcast that really dug into it in a way that a lot of people were craving. And so I think as Lexi and Nicole started to release these clips of the show they were about to do, people started to see, oh my God, this is exactly what I’ve been looking for.

I need to make sure I’m tuning in on day one. And so they were hoping for, I think it was 20 downloads in the first week, and in the first couple days they had 5,000.

It makes me So. happy.

Yeah, it, it, it’s so funny because it, it’s one of those kind of like overnight things. It’s such a cliche of like, oh my gosh, it changed.

Everything changed overnight. But it really was that, and I think a lot of it just came down to them being really smart to release clips before the show even started. Um, and also there’s a little bit of. Maybe luck’s not the right word, but it was the right place at the right time. There was a hole in the market, which is so hard to find in podcasting right now, and they kind of just jumped on it and, and they took their corner of the internet and they’ve kind of held onto it since then.

Definitely. And I think, I think you’re right. I feel like social media doesn’t always work, or at least, let me rephrase. I feel like, like Instagram and TikTok doesn’t always work for marketing a podcast. It’s really good at

like building a community. Um, but like you said, if you can’t find any other podcasts that are like yours and you want to let people know about it, Instagram and tiktoks a great way, a great way to make that

happen. Well, first of all, I feel like that you can tell from episode one that they love what they’re talking about. Like they are passionate and they are having a good time. And I feel like people notice that and they love that even in just the clips.

And so I feel like they love what they’re doing and also they found something that no one else was doing that they wanted to do. And I truly do think that that set them apart, along with the fact that it’s a deep dive and not very, not very many. Podcasts are doing book deep dives like they do

at least.

Yeah, and I think the thing that was really interesting to me that I saw when I was considering going to work with Nicole and Lexi was that. A huge issue in the podcast industry is like, social media is great, but how do you get someone to click off of Instagram and move over to Spotify or to Apple Podcasts?

Actually listen to the show. And I was like, I don’t know what the answer is. But they have figured it out. And I think it really comes down to like how excited, like how can you tap into a community that is excited about what you’re providing, so much so that they’re willing to stop their scroll and move over to somewhere else.

Um, and if you’re going to. Start a show and you want to promote it on social media, I think you should, but at the same time, you have to ask yourself like, how? How am I getting people to want to jump over from where they already are to a completely different ecosystem so that they can actually listen to my show?

Totally, and I think your social media clips have to be incredibly compelling.

To so, and like you have to have the right fan base and your social media clips have to be like over the moon excited so that people are

like, wow, okay, I have to go listen to this thing.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And just like another tidbit, like just the audiograms that people can do, just. They’re just not effective anymore, and you really do need to lean on the video element as much as you can. Um, the industry is in this weird place where everybody knows that we need to be using video, but we don’t really know how to use it.

Or people start using video and they start making a YouTube channel and turning it into a podcast. And so. It’s like one of those necessary evils, right? You have to figure out how video works within your own podcast universe, so to speak. Um, and you have to put some real thought behind it because otherwise you’re just really gonna be wasting time.

Um, I think a lot of shows post social clips just out of obligation. But you kind of have to ask yourself, okay, how can I get some kind of return on investment here? Whether it’s like community building to your point, just because you post social clips doesn’t mean it has to turn one-to-one into downloads.

Um, that can become its own living, breathing thing that you’re building an asset for your show. Um, but all that to be said, I, I think it’s not just as simple as posting clips. 99.9% of the time.

Yeah, I totally agree. Okay, so we know that. Doesn’t work for every podcaster. Um, so what is the easiest or simplest strategy that the fantasy fan girls team has implemented to grow your show other than social media?

Yeah, I, I was thinking about this question and the thing that really comes to mind is like investing in our community. Um, if you are, if you have a show and you’re lucky enough to have a group of people who are invested in your show, pouring back into them is the easiest way to do like gorilla marketing and word, word of mouth marketing.

Um, I can’t tell you how many times a week we have people who will share the episode or share one of our clips on their own Instagram story. And that is just a really effective way for you to get in front of people with like-minded interests who you maybe not have reached yet. Um, I mean, if you look at the bookish community, all these people follow each other.

Everybody’s following each other. Everyone’s commenting on each other’s videos and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know, but we’re not gonna reach every single one of them, but. If Lexi and Nicole, let’s say for example, we go to these live events and we have these meet and greets. If Lexi and Nicole. Do a really good job of making this person feel seen and heard.

Um, one that’s a great experience for Lexie and Nicole because doing that kind of stuff really fills their cup. But on the other end, it’s really impactful for that listener and they’re more likely to reach out to their friends, tell them about the show, or even just share it on their social media. Um, that has been like a huge component of us.

And in terms of like a lift, yeah, I mean, obviously it takes the time and effort to invest in the community. But it doesn’t cost a dollar for the business. It, it’s a very effective way for us to do marketing without having to spend actual dollars.

Totally. And okay, so. Most of my listeners shows aren’t quite as big as fantasy fangirls

yet, so I feel like not all of us have meet and

greets to go to. But I think how that could be translated for like other podcasters is go to networking events, meet people face to face, like

let them know how awesome you are, and then when they get home, they’re gonna listen to an episode, fall in love with you, and then tell their friends about you.

Right? It doesn’t have to be. A meet and greet, which, you know, all of us can dream that one day we

get there. But it doesn’t have to be that right now. You don’t have to be like,

well, I can’t do that, so that doesn’t work for me. Find other

that’s just an example, that’s just an example where like, for example, your version of a meet and greet can be like an Instagram live. It can be, um, if you have some kind of like forum community, whether it’s Discord or whatever, where you guys are having like a weekly happy hour together.

Like all these different things to make somebody feel like they’re actually not just listening to your show, but a part of something bigger than that makes them actually wanna sell the product, so to speak, to, uh, people that they come into contact with.

Definitely, and we all know that the best way to grow your show, like bar none, is word of mouth, right? And

the best way to get word of mouth growth is by helping your people fall in love with you and then become your biggest fans to share with other people. So what advice do you have for newer podcasters that are, like their show is launched, they’ve got a few episodes out, and they’re like, okay, I am not scared of launching anymore. I know that I can do it, but now I’m looking to grow. What’s your advice for those podcasters?

Yeah. So one thing that is really difficult about podcasting is discoverability. Like I think that the bigger institutions in our industry have kind of failed us as creators and not figuring out a way to actually give us a reliable way to. Discover, uh, or shows except through YouTube, which is inherently not a platform that was built with podcasts in mind.

Um, and, and we’ve been talking about social media and how it’s not always that effective for a podcast. So really what you have to do is you kind of have to take things into your own hands and ask yourself, where is my audience? So in the case of moms, right, you do a lot of work with mothers. I remember there was, um, a friend of mine actually who started a podcast after she had her child and she made it kind of her passion project.

And I can’t help but think of like all the different Facebook groups that, uh, mothers join whenever they are looking for community as they’re going through this incredible life change and. Um, I think like that’s one place where you know that your audience is going to be, start connecting with that community in a genuine way.

Don’t join the community immediate and immediately plug your podcast, but become a part of that community and start funneling people to your show that way. Um, for us it was Instagram and TikTok because I ironically, a lot of people who love books and want to connect with people about books. But don’t have anyone to talk about books with are just kind of scrolling on Instagram or TikTok and watching stray videos here and there.

But they don’t have that sense of community yet. That’s what Fantasy Fan girls was going to be for them. We just had to find them. So for us it was social media. For other people, it could be Facebook groups, it could be like local community things, right? You could actually go to in-person events and start making friends and networking in that way.

Um, I, I mean, there’s any number of things you can do. You just have to look in the right place.

Definitely. I love that you said like. Figure out where your people are. That is such, it’s a hard thing to do sometimes, but it’s essential. You have to know where your people are hanging out. Like for me, the other one, so you said Facebook groups, which is truly Yes. A big place where moms hang out.

The other one that I’ve found is Pinterest.

I use Pinterest to. For my podcast and like it’s really helped grow my show because honestly, not that many podcasters are using it. And also there are a lot of moms on Pinterest. And so when I finally, you know, took a step back and was like, okay, where are my people really?

And Pinterest was definitely not the first one on my list, but when I narrowed it down I was like, you know what? Let’s try it. And Pinterest has been such a good fit for me, but it is not the first one that you think of when you think of podcasts. So sometimes you have to get a little creative before you find. Where your place is to really invest to grow your show

For sure. Or like if you’re, you have a business podcast, you would probably go to LinkedIn. Um, it’s just like, but we would probably never post on LinkedIn. There’s, it’s just not, it’s just not worth it for us. But for somebody who. Um, my first job in podcasting was a B2B podcast production company. Um, and it was the driest work I’ve ever done, but these people have, you know, a hundred thousand followers on LinkedIn and so there’s some kind of market there.

Totally.

I love it. Okay. So have you and the fantasy fan girls team had any like aha moments around podcast growth? Like as you’ve been trying different things? I feel like podcasting is a lot of trial and error, a lot of

experimenting. Have you had any of those aha moments when it came to growth?

Yeah. And, um, I think this is really relevant for people who feel like they’re starting to really build some kind of community and, and starting to notice some of that traction in their community. Um, the biggest moment for our business, um, since we started was when Onyx Storm release, which was the third book of the fourth Wing series in, I believe it was January of this year.

And we knew that was a really, really big deal for us. And coincidentally at the time, we had gotten in contact with a service provider who is basically a competitor for Patreon. So they, uh, essentially run like your, or they, they service your subscription model that, uh, a lot of different creators use.

And, uh, it’s better fees, it’s an easier experience, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyways, all that being said. We were considering doing it, but we were terrified because getting people, like we said, to move from one place to the other is really, really difficult. And so at, we were debating whether or not to do it, and we ended up taking the plunge and we wanted to capitalize on Onyx storm.

So we said we want to. Launch our new subscription model a week before the book comes out. And in doing that, not only did our listenership grow just through OnX Storm, but we also doubled our subscription, uh, revenue because of it. And I’ve kind of toyed around with the idea of calling this like excitement stacking to where if you have your community, let’s say, or even like, I don’t know if you were.

Uh, obviously I, I, I don’t know if any of your moms are like sports people, but let’s say you were an NFL podcaster, right? And you know that the, the new season is going to start, or it already started this past week. Um, maybe you would wanna do some big announcement around your content or around your community in conjunction with that time.

Uh, just, and this comes back to knowing where your people are, um, not only just like physically, but emotionally. Like people were so ready for this book to come out and they were so excited to see what Nicole and Lexi had to say and once they realized like, oh, there’s gonna be extra stuff on this fan club.

Uh, I have to sign up basically. And so, um, it was really serendipitous. Like we, we were terrified that it was doing this and we ended up having, I think it was, not only did we double our subscription revenue, but we had 90% of our current membership, uh, our current people on Patreon migrate within like the first two weeks.

And I, I seriously, I think part of it was obviously our planning from a marketing perspective, but the other part was just. The level of excitement around the community in general about the new book.

Definitely. Okay. I absolutely love that. I feel like. You can, well, I can’t, I, I think it would be a little bit harder with my podcast, but my podcast just isn’t as exciting. Let’s just be honest. It’s fine. It’s like, got

a lot of good information. It’s got good information, but it’s not exciting. But like, if you had like a Taylor Swift, um, like fan club podcast and her, you knew her.

Like her new album was coming out, have a big announcement then, or like,

and then of course then she got engaged on top of that. So like,

it would just be a good thing for you. But like I, I love the idea of plan your stuff around stuff that’s already happening that your people are excited about. Like, that

just makes sense. And it’s not that hard to like piggyback on someone else’s thing that they’re already doing. Like, like you

said, with Onyx storms coming out. Either way we might as well take advantage of all these people being excited about it.

yeah. And I think like this is more relevant to people who are like. Reaction style shows or like maybe covering more like fandom related stuff. I think that is like just such a great guiding light for like when something big is happening in your neck of the woods content wise.

Like don’t just do, oh my gosh, reaction episode to this new book. Make it like a big deal for your community and your entire business because like there is not going to be another time for, at least in our case, like we don’t know when the next fourth wing book is coming out, but probably in the next two years that is like the super bowl of excitement for this community.

So like why not take advantage of it? The Taylor Swift thing is a great point. Unfortunately, I think there was like. She announced she was gonna be on the podcast two days before the podcast, and then, so there wasn’t enough time. But, um, I mean, imagine if somebody timed a big launch with her engagement

mean, if they just somehow knew, that would be pretty

amazing.

that’d be crazy. That’d be crazy. Anyways. But um, yeah, it’s just so interesting because we’ve been talking about like how hard it is to grow a podcast and like at some point, like if you’re making content about somebody else’s work or about something else, like you’re already. Benefiting off the backs of the, the, the excitement that somebody else is drumming up.

Just lean into it all the way. That just makes your marketing plan a lot easier than having to like, think about like, oh, how many clips do I need to post? And exactly how exciting do they need to be and what trends do I need to follow? Uh, it makes it a lot simpler.

Definitely. I feel like a lot of it is like for reaction podcasts and there are a lot out there and there are good ones out there. I do feel like you can, benefit from stuff like, I don’t know if my podcast could benefit from Onyx Storm being released, but if I know most of my listeners, they have a podcast, but also they’re like avid readers.

Why not take advantage of Onyx Storm Or you know, I feel like Taylor Swift would be a good one. Most females on planet Earth, at least the ones that speak English like Taylor Swift or know about her. So that would be an easy one to be like, Hey, let’s just, I could even just be like, okay, this season I’m changing the color of my like podcast icon to be her colors, because why

not?

Right? Like, I feel like there’s, you can do it in other ways, even if it’s not like directly related to your show. But like you

said, just lean all the way in. If you’re, if you’re gonna do it, do it all the way.

Yeah. Or with moms, it’s like back to school. Like every year, like that’s a great season for, you know, parents have a little bit more time maybe. I mean, granted I’m not a parent so I won’t speak for them, but, um, also there’s, you know, that’s probably a time where that’s a huge adjustment for parents. And so this is a great opportunity for your show to be like, Hey, I might have some answers for you, or I might help you feel not so alone in this moment.

That might be really challenging for you. And so, I mean, you could do. A back to school series every year, not to get too in the nitty gritty of it, but I think you, you can find something for just about every single niche.

Oh, for sure. You just have to get creative. And the thing is that most people don’t want to spend time getting creative with

trying to figure it out. So if you spend that time. Trying to figure it out, the likelihood of your success goes up significantly.

Yeah, absolutely.

I feel like this was like a mini masterclass on how to grow your show in a unique way because truly a, I have noticed there, there are a lot of book podcasts in the universe,

but fantasy Fan Girls ca was not the first book podcast and they have still, you all have grown so fast and so much and it makes me so happy. So. Just know that I feel like I’m just talking to my listeners. I’m like, hi. Just know that even if your podcast is not the only one in your genre fantasy fan, girls shows you that you can grow even if you’re the like 200th

podcast in your genre.

Yeah. Two, I mean, two things on that real quick. One, uh. For inspiration for your listeners out there. Lexi was a, a, a stay at home mom essentially before this show took off. And now she’s like this amazing boss woman who is like, just like taking over the world basically. And, and I mean, it truly can happen to everyone.

It won’t happen to everyone, but it can happen to anybody. Um, and then second, there have been thou that probably thousands, tens of thousands of book podcasts released. Um, 90% of them probably don’t exist anymore. And, uh. Lexie and Nicole were the first to truly deep dive this one specific book, and it has propelled them to be able to do all other kinds of things.

So when you think that your niche is crowded, there is a potential that like just the niche of your niche is crowded and you need to find you specific corner of that niche to really kind of take off. Um, so. I don’t know. I mean, it, it’s been really, really interesting to, uh, be a part of this experience, but also watch this happen in real time.

And at the end of the day, it’s like taught me one thing is like nobody really knows what they’re doing. It’s, it’s all about like, making stuff that people wanna listen to and that makes them feel part of something, not just like listening to a show every week. Um, I think you’ll find like. All of my favorite shows throughout my life have been like, not just shows, they’re ones where I feel like, oh, I’m, I’m kind of a part of something, like I’m a part of something bigger than just a show.

Um, and so there’s not really a formula, but there’s something that’ll work for everybody.

Definitely. Well, and I, and one thing. That fantasy fangirl has taught me is do what you love, because like even if you don’t grow as fast as fantasy fan girls, at least you’re gonna enjoy it along the way, right? Like, it’s not

like there’s, like you said, there is no perfect formula. So make sure you’re doing something that you’re enjoying along the way as you’re figuring it all out.

Yeah, for sure. And and that’s the other thing is like podcasting was built as an industry of hobbyists who love something so much that they want to talk about it. And I think it’s really important for you to approach it in that way as you’re building a show. I think people. Think of podcasts as like business entities from day one and just like, unless if you’re a celebrity, that’s just like not the reality of what you’re gonna be working with.

And if you don’t approach. Your show with the same passion that you feel, then you probably shouldn’t be making your show. Um, like for example, it’s like, you know, I, I started a podcast in the Pandemic and I stopped it when I started to feel less excited about the actual subject matter that I was talking about, because it was no longer a hobby.

It felt like work. And so, um, that’s kinda like my last piece of advice is like we walk away from this is for people as they’re starting their show, to always keep in mind like. Why did I start this in the first place? Hopefully it’s because I love what I’m talking about and to always keep that intact because at the end of the day, one day the show will end.

Like fantasy fan girls probably won’t be around forever. I’d be really surprised if I was 70 years old. It’s still working on the show, but like. I’ll be able to look at back on it and say to myself like, I’m really proud that I was able to work on this thing because myself and Nicole and Lexi were really passionate about what we were talking about.

And that counts for a lot. Uh, that counts for way more than like the number of downloads that you get on any given episode.

I completely agree. I love that. Well, thank you so much for being on the show today. This has been an absolute delight and I’m so excited for all of my listeners to hear it.

Thanks so much, Andy. Appreciate it.

Isn’t the fantasy fan girl story amazing. And Hayden was such a delight. I am so grateful he took the time to share his insights on podcast growth. I. Okay, let’s take a second to recap what we just learned from Hayden because there were so many gems in there.

First takeaway, create excitement. Before your launch, Hayden talked about how fantasy fangirls posted clips before their first episode even dropped, and that early buzz helped them hit 5,000 downloads in just a few days. Few, and you haven’t missed the boat. If you’ve already launched your podcast, you can use this same strategy with the launch of each new season of your podcast. The second takeaway is invest in your community. When people feel seen and part of something bigger, they naturally share your show. Whether it’s a quick Instagram live, replying to comments, or hosting a small listener chat, these moments matter more than fancy marketing.

The third takeaway is look for your people in unexpected places. Maybe your listeners are hanging out on Pinterest, in Facebook groups or at local events. Once you find them, show up there and genuinely connect. And finally, Hayden reminded us that passion is the secret sauce. You don’t have to have everything figured out.

Just make something you love and invite others to love it with you. If you’re feeling overwhelmed and not sure where to start because there was a lot of goodness in there, here’s your friendly next step. Set a five minute timer and brainstorm all the places online or in real life where your listeners hang out.

Then think about one small way you can show up in those places and connect with future listeners. Do you know any other podcasters who are also fantasy fans? You should definitely send this episode to them. Next week, I’ll be sharing a marketing plan you can use next month during the holiday season, because I know things can get really crazy during this time of year.

Thanks for being here, and I’ll see you next week!