Experiment with Podcast Format with Whitney Archibald

Links

• Podcast Jumpstart Session
• The Family Lab
• The Y Magazine Podcast
• For the Love of History

Connect with me

• Instagram

• Threads

Unedited transcript of the episode:

[00:00:00] Hi, I’m Andy Smiley, your friendly podcast guide. I help you start and launch a podcast that is fun and fulfilling. I share tips, stories from my own journey and insights from podcasters I admire. In this episode, I’m experimenting with a different format instead of just sharing my phenomenal conversation that I had

with Whitney Archibald. I’m dipping my toe into the narrative format. You’ll notice that instead of listening to just Whitney and I’s conversation,

you’ll hear me pop in to transition us to the next part of our conversation. This is my first attempt, so I know that it isn’t going to be perfect, but I’m excited to try. And as a reminder, if you only have the capacity to implement one thing at the end of the episode, I’ll tell you what that one thing should be so you don’t feel overwhelmed trying to figure out where to start.

Whitney is the host of the Parenting podcast, the Family Lab, where she helps us all realize that parenting is one giant experiment and that perspective [00:01:00] also bleeds into the way that she podcasts.

Whitney: So I get bored easily, I like to try different formats and I also like to learn and try new things and my whole, my whole shtick is experimenting, so, so I have tried a lot of different formats for, um. podcasting.

On my show currently I have four different formats. One is a top five episode where we choose a topic and pick a top five. That’s the one Andy was on with me. So, um,

Andi: so fun.

Whitney: When I’m going to write an episode for an interview, it always starts with research.

I think sometimes we jump right into the writing and we forget how much research has to happen before you write an episode. And that includes, um, interview questions. I, I include that in the writing of my, my episode. So, so I usually try to kind of come up with an intro that will introduce a theme to the interview.

If I can think of a story, that’s always a great way to start. An [00:02:00] episode, a story, an anecdote, you know, something hopefully with a little humor, basically, I’m writing the hook.

Andi: Yeah, totally.

Whitney: and I don’t always come up with a hook at the beginning, but I always try to come up with at least a rudimentary hook.

Often the hook comes after I’ve done the interview and had these epiphanies from our conversation or whatever, but, , I always try. to write a hook, um, I kind of write, write an introduction, get, get some of the business out of the way, and then, then I just, , dig into whoever I’m interviewing, um, I listen to other interviews that they’ve done, so I can see, like, what they’re good at talking about, , either I’m reading their book, And, and taking notes along the way, or I’m listening to other interviews from them, um, whatever resources I have from that person.

And then I’m just compiling questions. Then I kind of organize those into an outline, once I do that, though, I I don’t stick to my questions very well during an interview, , but it, it just gives me a framework, a, [00:03:00] a guide to that interview.

And then, I always figure out what I want to lead with, you know, what, what question I want to start with, um, and then I follow their lead and let the Let the conversation take its course. While still, I’ve, I’ve researched enough that I know the general shape that I want the interview to take so that I can guide them back in.

But I also want to follow interesting tangents. Like, wait, what did you say there? Like, you really did that with your family? Like, I’ve got to know more. Where’d you get that idea?

And sometimes I need to, to bring it back.

And, and I usually kind of know how I want to end it, you know. But sometimes I don’t. Sometimes I get surprised by the interviewer. Um, and so, you know, I’ve given them this, these questions and then sometimes I don’t ask them. But then at the end I always do ask, um, Is there anything you wish I would have asked that I didn’t?

And that can be from my original questions or just something else that they want me to ask. And then, and then we cover that just so I don’t. Leave something [00:04:00] out big or leave something that they’re passionate out. Um, but that’s basically how I construct an interview episode.

So either for, you know, one of my top five, like when I have a top five, I ask people, okay, come with your top five, obviously. Um,

Andi: Yeah.

Whitney: and I, with, with Andy, it was podcast episodes. Um, I’m doing one on family movie nights, I like give them the leverage to be like, you can just. Do it your top five of all time, or you can come up with a subcategory, that’s great too.

So, so they have that guidance I give them a simple structure of the interview. I give him questions and then.

we kind of go with that shape that I’ve created. So we usually go from broad to narrow is, is my general rule

Andi: Yes, totally. Well, and truly, okay. As you were talking, I was remembering. We are such podcast nerds, Whitney, but when we went to the podcast conference last year, uh, what’s it called? Something evolutions.

Whitney: podcast movement.

Andi: Thank you. Podcast [00:05:00] movement evolutions. Um, we got to hear from Dallas Taylor about. His podcast, 20, 000 Hertz.

And when you were talking about like the last question that you ask, when he, his last question that he asks is some, I’m going to butcher it, but it’s some version of if you could summarize everything that you’ve talked about tonight in. Like two minutes. I don’t remember how long, but like a short amount of time. What would you say? And he says he always uses that clip somewhere in the episode. And I just loved that idea.

Whitney: about that. I’m so glad you

Andi: Oh, well, there you go.

Whitney: Because you so often need that and it sounds so much better coming from them.

Andi: Especially at the end when they’ve been talking about it for 30 to 45 minutes, then they’ve kind of like fleshed it out. It’s all out there. They know all of the things that they want to say and that kind of, and honestly, it just helps them sound smart, which you want them to sound smart and they want to sound smart.

So it’s like a win win.

Whitney: [00:06:00] Well, plus, plus you have rapport by then. I always find, that helps me so much with something I’ve been struggling with actually. Thank you for reminding me that. Because,

Andi: I’m glad.

Whitney: I always find that You know, sometimes they’re saying what you want them to say at the beginning, but the energy’s not there because you’re not friends yet.

Like I, I really feel like by the end of an interview, I’m friends with the person that I’ve been interviewing and we have this chemistry that we didn’t have at the beginning. And so that is such a good reminder to go back to some of those, maybe even some of those first questions like, and ask them again, like not just a summary, but maybe some of the other first questions where you’re like.

Okay, now, now that we know each other, let’s talk about that again and get real, you know? Yeah.

Andi: interview you for my show. So, and now we’re friends. For real. So,

Whitney: mean, it’s

Andi: there you go. It works. You can

Whitney: that’s why I, uh, [00:07:00] podcast. I just want to make a lot of friends.

Andi: Seriously, that is one of, the reasons that I have a podcast I just needed adult conversation, which is, yeah, why I started a podcast, one of the reasons, so.

Yeah. I love that outline of your interview episodes because when I truly, when I coach people about podcasting, interviewing is something that everyone wants to know about, but they don’t really know what they want to know about it. So I feel like that was a really good overview to kind of help people’s like minds start turning to figure out how they want to do their own structure for an interview.

Cause yeah, they can be kind of daunting, but they’re the bomb. I love doing interviews. I feel like you get new friends like you were talking about, but also you just get just different perspectives. And I always learn something when I do an interview and I just love that.

Whitney: Yeah. So the, the big thing that I’m changing up, and, To pull the curtain away, that’s kind of what we’re doing today, so I took a year off, um, after an accident, and I, I [00:08:00] realized I really wanted to take stock on like, what do I really crave?

Why am I doing this podcast? What do I enjoy about it? And what do I wish I could do more? And I realized that my favorite conversations were the ones where we were, present as equals. Like, we were really having a full on conversation. It wasn’t just me peppering somebody with questions in the It was more of a co host relationship. And so, I decided to deliberately do more of that. And so, I prep my guests differently. And I, tell them, like, you can ask me questions about what I do, I’ll ask you questions about what you do, and that’s how Andy and I went into this episode, um, as let’s try and do a more co host style.

And, sometimes it allows you to go deeper. It allows them to think about how they would guide a conversation about the topic, they’re going to come at it from totally different perspective. And some guests catch the vision and they’ll do that with me and we’ll really have this deep [00:09:00] conversation.

You know, some of the most popular pod, podcast hosts already do this. They, they have this deep philosophical conversation and they’re like, Oh yeah, I never thought of that. And let’s. Let’s go there and like, you know, let’s develop these ideas together instead of like, I want to know what’s in your brain, which is also fascinating.

But if, if you’re, if you’re both doing it, it can be so magical. And so I’m really trying to develop that skill. That’s the big skill I’m trying to develop. So, so that’s what I’m doing. I have a co host for the first time on my, on my book club series, um, where she’s a regular host and she’s going to be on it.

Sometimes we have another guest.

Andi: Oh, that’s fun.

Whitney: We’re the, we’re the baseline and we’re, collaborating and figuring out how that works. We’ll, we’ll be getting better at it, I hope, as, as it goes But even my other guests for the lab podcast, I tell them that we’re kind of co hosts, leading them through these labs.

We’re both going to give ideas. We’re both going to give examples. And it’s been a super fun experiment so far, so,

Andi: That’s awesome. Well, and truly, I feel like that’s [00:10:00] another way for you to. Be seen as an expert, right? Is when you’re both giving your ideas in an episode, instead of just asking for all of your guests ideas, which, so like, yes, I still think solo episodes are good, but that’s another way that you can bring in that, aspect of, I’m not just asking for someone else’s advice.

We’re having a conversation where we’re both giving our ideas and everything. I love that.

Let me just tell you, solo episodes can be super intimidating. I used to be so intimidated by solo episodes that my podcast was exclusively interview episodes. I did not want to touch solo episodes. But I realized there are a lot of benefits to having solo episodes within my podcast catalog.

Andi: my show used to be only interview episodes and I realized that it didn’t ever give me room to be the expert on the topic. And so I’ve started [00:11:00] to try and incorporate more solo episodes and I do feel more like the expert. So yay.

Um, so I use, Oh, please.

Whitney: that is such a common thing for, , when you’re starting to podcast because we’ve all listened to those episodes where, The host is all about themselves, and you’re like, I came here, I wanted to hear about the guest. But I think, I think sometimes we overcorrect, and we make it so much about the guest that they don’t get to know us as the host.

And honestly, if they’re a regular listener , to a podcast, they are there for you. And, like, they want to get to know you as a host. Anyway, that’s just my, my plug for, for solo episodes. I just had a friend who was like, but I, I liked your guests, but I wanted to hear more from you.

And I was like, Oh yeah, so I’m doing solo episodes more this season too. So anyway, keep going. I interrupted you.

Andi: No, I love it. No. And it’s true. And I feel like, especially when you start a podcast. You’re just kind of nervous about the whole thing, [00:12:00] right? You’re just trying to figure it all out. So solo episodes feel a little bit daunting. And so this is like us giving you permission to do a solo episode.

Just try it. It’s going to work out

Whitney: they’re easier because you don’t have to schedule anything

Andi: It’s so true. There’s so much less admin involved with the solo episode, which does definitely cut down on my like podcasting time because now I’m only editing one episode a month. One interview a month and then three solos makes it so much easier. When I first started doing solo episodes, I would write it out word for word. And I think this was like a control thing for me. And I think it was also a nervous thing. Like I was scared. I was going to say something wrong or I was going to stumble over my words and editing was going to take forever. And Truly editing did not take as long because I was reading word for word, but I also sounded like a robot and then people weren’t really able to get to know me cause I was, it was all very scripted. So when I decided to start doing video, I decided I didn’t want it scripted anymore because I didn’t want to [00:13:00] just have someone watching me read like that felt really awful.

So I switched to bullet points and it does take me a little bit longer to edit solo episodes now, but I am getting better at it too. Like the more that I’ve practiced, the less. I think I’m getting better at editing solo episodes, but I think I’m also better at just recording them in general.

I don’t go out on as many tangents and I can like make it all flow a little bit better just cause I’ve practiced it more. So this is my, my plug for doing bullet points instead of scripting. Um, it will make you sound like more of a human. It will take you a little bit longer to edit at least at the beginning, but it is worth it.

And especially I use Descript to edit. And so if you don’t know what Descript is, you just put your MP4 or MP3 into Descript and then it spits out a transcript at you. So all you have to do is like. Highlight whatever you want to get rid of and then delete it. It makes editing so much easier.

And that is another reason, well, I love to script for many reasons, but that is one of the main ones is it’s made [00:14:00] editing in general easier, but especially solo episodes.

Whitney: Yeah, yeah, I use Riverside and it does the same thing. Um, so that’s, so that’s so interesting and it’s like, it’s just developing another skill. So, there’s the, the writing skill that you kind of developed at first when you were, you know, which probably helped you organize

Andi: That’s true. It’s true.

Whitney: helped qualify you to be able to do the bullet points.

method. It was probably kind of a stepping stone because you, you figured out how to organize your episodes, how, how you wanted them to flow. And now that you kind of have that skill figured out, now you can move on to the, to the bullet point. So like people listening might be on different stages of their journey.

So if they’re not ready for the bullet point, like, I don’t know that I’m ready for bullet points, but yeah, I still, I, I’m pretty like I’ve done solo episodes here and there. I did it quarterly, um, talking about my own personal experiments that I try at my

Andi: are my favorite episodes.

Whitney: Um, thank you.

Um, but that’s pretty easy cause I’m talking about myself and I, you know, like, but I’d still write out [00:15:00] everything. Um, it also depends on your goals because, I am a writer

Mm.

from the beginning. Like, like, I started in magazine writing. I love the writing process. I love, like, that’s how I think.

And so, like, scripting it out, I will probably always keep doing that, even once I develop better just conversational, um, I don’t know what, the public speaking skills, really. Like, that’s what you’ve developed. That’s what you’re developing. But, because I have experience on the mic now, I write it, I edit it, I get so familiar with my script that I can, I can just glance as if it’s an outline.

But I’d still like to have the whole thing scripted out and written, partly because I love the craft of that, writing that in the first place, and I have specific phrases that I want to use that I don’t want to forget, so, so, you know, I think it’s partly, why are you podcasting?

For me it’s to get better at writing for that craft, but if, you want to get better at [00:16:00] public speaking, I mean, they go hand in hand, but, but, Being able to speak off an outline is such a huge, awesome skill that I, I probably should experiment with some episodes that way and just get better at that skill, too, so,

Andi: Well, okay. As you were talking, I’m realizing that I’m writing an episode, a solo episode, let’s say, I will write out, I’ll just kind of brainstorm and just kind of like, Almost like, I’ll just kind of like throw up on the page and be like, these are all of the things I could talk about in this episode. And then I’ll kind of pick and choose like the three to five favorites. I really like that you said that, that writing an episode isn’t bad. You’re right. Like, it just depends on what you want. And if you do want to build that public speaking skill, like speaking from an outline from bullet points instead of a script, but you still want to work on writing, or you still want that piece, you could write it all out beautifully.

And then that could be like your blog post, right? That’s, that’s gorgeous with headings and [00:17:00] all of that stuff. And then you pull from that your bullet points for the actual episode. Cause, like, you don’t want to throw away. Like, if you’re really good at writing, like, don’t not do that, right? Like, you gotta make sure you’re doing all you’re gonna do.

Whitney: yeah, and it, it comes down to, like, figuring out what is your competitive advantage, like, like, writing and editing are the skills that I’ve been trained in and those are my competitive advantage. They make me different. They don’t make me better because there are some, there are a lot of podcasts that I listen to that I can tell they’re just good at speaking off the cuff and being funny spontaneously and they’re natural and lovable and those are their competitive strengths.

So I think it really comes down to knowing yourself, leaning into your strengths but not being afraid to expand. Your skill set to once you get those down, you know?

Andi: Yeah, totally. Well, and like, we love to talk about like experimenting, try something like if you’ve always written them out. Try bullet pointing. If it [00:18:00] sucks and you try it for a month and like, nothing’s getting better, then stop, like, don’t force yourself to keep going, but at least trying that out. You’ll probably learn some things about yourself or like something in that process will probably help you if nothing else, it’ll help you know that you never want to do that again.

Right. So like, there’s never a question. I really, I really love that. And I love that you said, like, it doesn’t make you better. It just makes you different. It is so true that. We listen to different podcasts for different reasons and you just need to figure out what reason you want your listeners to listen to you.

If it’s to get straight facts that you don’t want to mess up, then write it out so that you don’t mess it up. Right. Or if it’s just, you want to give them some tips, but you also just want it to be like a conversational vibe, then the bullet points might be a better fit for you.

Whitney: Yeah. Well, and some people, want to have a conversation where they want to have a parasocial relationship with you, they want to be your friend and they want you to just chat at them. And, and that may be the thing. kind of podcast you have. You know, , there are so many different [00:19:00] types of, of podcasts that, uh, you can even invent your own.

So,

Andi: also true because truly as I, as we’ve been talking, one of my favorite history podcasts is called for the love of history and the host, her name is TK. She writes everything out cause she doesn’t want to mess up. It’s a history podcast. She gets, she has to make sure she’s like getting her facts right.

But she has these little like if she says something funny or like if she like mispronounces something she has these little asides almost with the listener, like my favorite thing she’ll do sometimes is she will ask Google if she’s said something correctly, like pronounced it correctly, but she leaves it in the, the episode.

So like, I feel, yeah. So it’s got that, like. Back and forth of like, yeah, she reads the script to make sure that she gets it. Right. She’s also a really good storyteller. And I think that’s part of like, she writes really good stories. And so. As you were talking, like, inventing your [00:20:00] own, like, version I feel like she’s kind of done that in the, she writes it, but she also has these asides that are, like, off the cuff that I absolutely love. Yeah. Okay. Now I feel differently. I, for me, I still like bullet points, but I do, but I’m seeing that, like, bullet points aren’t for everyone. So thanks for helping me broaden my view, Whitney.

Whitney: Well, you know.

Andi: Oh, I love it.

So this next part of the episode is what actually inspired me to try out this narrative format for this episode. Whitney is kind of the queen of this format, so learning from her about narrative format. Narrative style was absolutely amazing using.

Whitney: I’ve done a lot of narrative podcasts for another podcast I do called the Y Magazine Podcast for BYU, Brigham Young University. And they’re, they’re telling a story from beginning to end. But it’s interesting in podcasting because you don’t always know before you interview what the story is going to be, what the, what the shape is going to [00:21:00] be.

So, it’s more investigative journalism, and you’re interviewing, you know, two to three, different, sources, and you’re finding out what the story is, you’re kind of crafting it along the way. I’ll often write like three different hooks as, as I’m going like, oh wait, no, this is going to be the hook.

I don’t quite know what it is until I have all the information. And so, um, that is more like a magazine writing where you’re really crafting a story it combines those two things we’ve been talking about, um, where you have to guide this interview along, but you also know that you’re just going to be taking clips, so you don’t have to be as careful about what you say, more about getting those tidbits, those bite sized, quotes from them.

So it, it is a little different interviewing strategy, it’s definitely a different writing strategy, and then you get to like, oh,

Andi: second. Something you said, and I don’t want to forget it. So I’m going to say it right now. One thing that I’ve noticed, and I have to remind myself this often when [00:22:00] I’m interviewing people, but I can ask them to say something a specific way, like, Hey, will you tell me the story of, how you started your podcast, but will you tell me it?

Like. You’re telling a classroom full of kids. I don’t know. Like you can say something like that and then but you’re only taking the first part when you say can you tell me the story of how you started your podcast and then Get rid of the part where you’re like, like you’re telling a classroom full of kids, right?

Like I feel like sometimes I forget that I can edit myself Like I know that I can logically but I think in the moment I’m like, oh no I have to say this perfectly right like no you don’t you can you can even go back and like Rerecord yourself asking the question better, right? Like there’s no There’s no downside.

So when you were talking about how, like, you’re just taking clips, so you don’t have to be as careful with your words. I feel like that’s something that I need to be reminded of often, even if, even if I am keeping my words in there, like you can redo it if you need to.

Whitney: Oh, and I do that all the time in an interview. I’m like, I [00:23:00] said that really weirdly. I’m going to say that again. And, you know, I do that like at least once an interview, but. Usually multiple times. I’m like, this

is your permission to do the same thing. Because I’m going to re say that. And that makes them feel more comfortable, too.

And I start an interview that way, too. I’m like, hey, I edit, so if you don’t like the way you said something or you gave too much information or not enough information, just say, rewind, start again,

Andi: totally. Oh, I say the, I say the same thing and I also say I do it because I sound better after I edit, I sound smarter and they’re, and they always laugh. And I feel like it always helps like break the tension a little bit.

Whitney: Yeah, totally. Gives them permission. Yeah, so, so, yeah, if you’re, if you’re doing that you kind of go into it knowing what clips you think you want, and you try to get those, but then, you know, often you learn more along the way and you get surprised. So, I do write like a rough outline before I do the interviews of like what kind of things I want [00:24:00] just from what I know from my research on that story. then I kind of know what sound bites I need to get. , and so I write the questions based on that, but it often totally changes after I’ve interviewed them and done the investigations. And so then I’ll go back and restructure. Sometimes it’s reframed the whole, the whole structure of the piece once I do those interviews.

Um, but then I go back through those interviews and I start to make those clips. I just go through, I listen, I usually, um, copy and paste that part of the transcription and put it right into my script. And then, I have just the script with all these bits and pieces.

from each interview, and then I can move those around like a puzzle, and form those into my narrative. and then I write my narrative in between them, and connect them all, and make, turn it into a story.

That, that’s a process, that’s maybe, not something that especially beginner podcasters are going to attempt the narrative [00:25:00] structure, but it sure is fun. And I’ve even applied the narrative structure to many interviews. It can save your behind because Sometimes an interview isn’t good, really, or there’s pieces, but they were kind of scattered all over the place or they just are kind of boring, and sometimes you just need to summarize big swaths of their boring how I got from here to there, you know, like, They are not boring themselves, but they are not, maybe, necessarily gifted in animated storytelling.

Or, you know, they haven’t had much practice in front of an audience. Whatever it is. Um, but all is not lost if you have an interview that you’re like, Oh no, there’s nothing quotable from that. You know, like, it happens to all of us. Um, you can turn that into a narrative episode and make it sparkle. I do it all the time. I’ll just boil that, boil that 10 minutes down into a couple sentences and [00:26:00] then keep the story going. Because you gotta keep these listeners attention. You don’t want them to be like, uh, I’m falling asleep. And so that’s your responsibility as the host. It’s like they’re at your party, you know, and, and so you have to keep them interested.

If that means you come in and summarize here and there, that is a great service to your listeners and it’s rarely offensive to your, guest, your interviewee, so.

Andi: I, yeah, I completely agree. And truly Kate, as you’re talking, it is more work, but I think that’s one of the many reasons that I love a seasonal podcast. So then you’ve got time in between seasons to put that work in, right? Like if you’re like, okay, I, I want to try narrative podcasting for one episode in the next season, cause I know it’s going to take me a while.

Like let’s, find the interview, do the interview. And then you just have given yourself time to make it happen in a way that makes it so that you’re not trying to like cram it into everything else that’s [00:27:00] going in to your life.

Whitney: Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve found that it takes at least twice as long, sometimes three times as long to do a narrative. episode, um, well, depending on how many interviews you do, that’s really what it depends on, because, I mean, it just multiplies by the number of guests, pretty straightforwardly, actually.

Andi: Well, cause you’re listening to that much more audio, right? Like you’re trying to pull from that much more audio, which can be really dynamic and amazing, but it does take more time. So just like when you were talking about putting together the puzzle pieces, like my heart was like, that sounds like so much fun, but also my heart was also like.

That’s a lot of work. Like there’s both in there. So I feel like you have to give yourself the time and space to do it and don’t like expect yourself to be able to pull it out like a normal episode. Like if you want to try something new, go for it, but also give yourself the space to try it and do [00:28:00] it.

Whitney: Absolutely. Yeah. And I did trial by fire because I started my original How She Moms podcast doing that. Like, I’m like, I have 10 different interviews on this episode that I, where I would like, interview them on the same topic.

And then I’d compile all their responses in one episode to give like a menu of options. And I. It was a crazy person and it took an insane amount of work. And now podcasting is so easy because I’m not doing so many interviews for one episode. Um, but it sure refined my skills and made me really super fast.

As I’m wrapping up this episode, here’s the one thing you should implement in your podcast if you’re feeling overwhelmed and not sure where to start, and that is to experiment, try something new. The best way to figure out what your listeners like is to try something and see how they respond to it.

And don’t get me wrong, this doesn’t have to be a big experiment. This could be something as simple as changing up the way you [00:29:00] say your outro or choosing a topic that feels a little outside your comfort zone. Whatever you choose to do, make sure to track how your listeners react to it and track what you think about it too.

Then you’ll know if you should try to incorporate into your podcast long term or not. Will you share this episode with your friend who thought they couldn’t have a podcast unless it was an interview podcast? We’ll help her see all of the fun formats that a podcast can be.

In next week’s episode, I shared the rest of my conversation with Whitney. We are such podcast nerds and we went off on some fabulous tangents during our chat that didn’t fit in with this episode. So I put them all together in their own episode because, there are some amazing nuggets of wisdom , in all of those tangents that I just had to share.

Thanks for being here, and I’ll see you next week.