Our Top Podcast Movement Takeaways w/ Ana Xavier

Meet our guest: Ana Xavier

Ana Xavier is a podcast growth strategist and the host of “The Podcast Space.” With a passion for data and a gift for simplifying strategies, Ana helps creators grow their shows sustainably. She’s a firm believer that podcasting should be fun, not overwhelming and she’s full of ideas to help you make it that way.

Links

• Ana’s show The Podcast Space⁠
• ⁠Follow Ana on Instagram⁠
• ⁠My Pinterest course: Pinterest Magic for Podcasters⁠
• ⁠Sponsorship guide by Justin Moore: Sponsor Magnet

Connect with me

• Instagram
• Threads

Unedited transcript of the episode:

 Back in August I came home from podcast movement with so many ideas swirling around in my brain, and two takeaways that completely changed how I think about podcast growth.  My friend and brilliant podcaster, Anna Xavier was there too, and she even presented at Podcast Movement.

How cool is that?

Before I even got home from podcast Movement, I knew I had to bring Anna on my show to unpack both of our biggest takeaways together. Hi, I’m Andy Smiley, your friendly podcast guide and the podcast coach For women who want to grow their podcast without burning out, I share practical podcast tips, real stories from my own journey and wisdom from some of the smartest podcasters out there like Anna.

Just a quick reminder, at the end of this episode, I’ll share one simple step you can take from our conversation so you don’t feel overwhelmed trying to do all of the things. And before we jump in, one of the wildest parts of podcast movement this year was that no one was talking about Pinterest,

not one session, which blew my mind because leaning into Pinterest is what allowed me to go totally Instagram optional for my podcast. No more chasing trends or stressing about algorithms, and I’m still growing my show every single week. That realization inspired me to create Pinterest magic for podcasters.

My step-by-step system for marketing your podcast in under an hour a week. If you’re ready to stop hustling on social media and start seeing consistent growth, check the link in the show notes. Okay, let’s dive into my conversation with Anna Xavier and share our top takeaways from Podcast Movement.

 Anna and I met at Podcast Movement last year, and then this year we were actually friends at the beginning of it, so we hung out more and there were so many takeaways from podcast movement I learned so much.

But here are my top two. So my first one is podcast. SEO is. Completely necessary for podcasting. Like if you aren’t currently using podcast, SEO, you need to start.

It’s so important. Also with so many things you can definitely look at, at it different ways because it’s either podcast, SEO, regular SEO, answer language, basically like natural language and even l lms, which are the cha GBTs. So, and pick whatever is more, most exciting and go for it.

Totally. Yeah. And and truly I think why I loved hearing so much about podcast, SEO, like SEO in general is that it’s something that I can do once and then like check in on it periodically, but that’s it. Like I don’t have to constantly be doing stuff for that strategy. I can just like. Implement it, take like a day to implement it, and then it just kind of runs in the background while I like live my life and do all of my other podcasting things.

Yeah, and, and to another point, which is something that I’ve been actually done this summer while I was in between seasons. You can do that after the show is. And so basically you don’t feel like you need to do everything the week the episode goes out. You can go back and readjust the keywords or figure out like, actually this episode didn’t get as many, um, downloads as I expected.

Let me change a few things. And you can do that in batch that for so many episodes. And, and off you go. You’re done.

Seriously, it’s the best. I love it so much. Okay, so my second takeaway, um, that actually is perfect for what we’re doing right now, but is fellow podcasters aren’t. Competition, they’re collaborators. And that is something that I heard so much, um, especially from the keynote, from Ariel and lauren yes. I loved their keynote. They just have bring the best energy to podcast movement. I love it so much. And, one of their biggest takeaways, during their keynote was to. Collaborate with podcasters instead of seeing them as competition.

And I think that that is something that is definitely easier said than done when you’re first trying it out and you’re like, this feels weird. But once you kind of get into that mindset, it’s so, it just honestly makes podcasting more fun. If nothing else, like it’s just fun to have friends in the podcasting space and especially in the same niche because you all speak the same language.

You all know what you’re talking about, so you can collaborate and work together. Yeah, it’s just the best.

Yeah. And, and we know from the data that people who listen to podcasts look for new podcasts, so it’s the easiest way to convert new listeners into your show is to guest on other people’s podcast. Do guest interviews or like, have people as like guest. Hosts and give them the spotlight for them to share their expertise.

That’s just like so awesome. So agree.

Yeah, totally. What’s really fun is that collaborating can look so many different ways too. Like it can be guesting, which I think most people think that’s what it is and that’s it. But it could also be like just doing a feed drop. Like you just take one of your episodes and put it in their, feed and then they give you one of their episodes.

Like that takes very little effort, but it can be a big deal for both, for everyone involved. So I love, I love the idea of collaborating in that. Kind of the sky’s the limit when it comes to collaborating. You can be as creative as you want and get a lot out of it.

Yeah. And even you can do and expand beyond the episode. So if an episode worked really well, you can go on social media, you can go on newsletters and expand on that one episode, right? You can collaborate in different ways, um, that don’t require post-production. If you’ve done it already and you wanna kind of go back and, and.

Pull that a little more what they did discuss. Um, Lauren talked about the feed warmers, which I thought was really interesting. So basically where, while you’re in between seasons, you play someone’s podcast, kind of like a quick teaser of a show and so basically your, your subscribers still get information out, um, on the feed and get exposure to new shows when done intentionally.

It’s just a win-win for everybody and I really like that one.

Yeah, definitely. I forgot about that one. Thank you for the reminder.

That’s what we’re doing here for um,

Exactly.

This year for podcast movement, it was so interesting. My takeaways were. Kind of around, very similar to yours, the, the SEO, the, the PSO should we say, podcast search engine optimization. And basically, um, there was this session that, um, Courtney Elmer did on the results of her podcast.

And when she started looking specifically at Apple, she jumped like 90 positions on the charts. And she really ranked her podcast just by simply changing that and, and looking at the metadata. And I think that that in itself is so important because it enables anyone. To kind of go back and adjust those key words. And there’s so many tools, you don’t have to guess, um, but kind of thinking through. Um, how you can get more podcast listeners. I think that to me, I thought it was very obvious, Andy, I don’t know if you, you felt this, but everyone was talking about like different ways to grow a podcast and I thought that it was so helpful because people are not like, you know how last year it was, ah, video, video, you gotta have clips.

That’s the only way to scale your podcast. And this year there were so many different ones, which I really appreciated.

Yeah, I completely agree. There was much more of a diversity of, here are all of the different things. You can try to grow your podcast instead of, you need to be on YouTube. And that was like that. I feel like, yeah, that was last year and YouTube’s great and a great place to be, but it’s not the only way to grow your show.

Right, but also, actually, we should plug your Pinterest guide because that’s another way for people to actually really grow the podcast.

It’s true. Well and truly that was. Fascinating to me was that no one was talking about Pinterest, uh, podcast movement. I assume there’d be at least like one session. There was not. Maybe I will do a session next year about it. That’d be fun. Pinterest is my favorite way to grow my podcast because it takes not very much effort.

And your efforts are, um, compounded kind of indefinitely. Like I have a pin that I made six or seven months ago that is still bringing listeners to my show every single week. So if you wanna try Pinterest yourself, I have a Pinterest for Podcasters guide that will walk you through all of the steps to make that happen for you. Um, and I’ll make sure that the link is in the show notes so that you can grab that if that’s something you’re interested in.

Excellent. I mean, this is the perfect example of showcasing how, how can people look at what do they normally do best at, like, they really enjoy, because as you know, like. Podcasting is a long term game. You have to, um, stay in it for the long haul. So if you’re, whether you’re doing social media, for instance, I love doing social media or you’re, you like writing newsletters, whatever it is, you have to stick with something that you enjoy because otherwise it’s not gonna, you’re not gonna stay motivated.

Uh, you can try to plow through for three to six months, but then after a while you’re just like, I hate this. Uh, and we don’t want that. My second takeaway, um, was basically how everyone is so upset and mad about celebrities getting ad money. I thought it was fascinating. Um, but I had this conversation multiple times with podcasters and other peers at the event, and I was saying it feels like every edition of podcast movement, there’s a villain.

Um. Everybody is like, ah, AI and celebrities, they’re taking over the feeds. They’re basically stealing all of our audience. And it, it’s kind of true to a point because the top 10, the biggest shows, the most popular ones, like all her daddy, uh, they’re CEO, you know,

school of Greatness, all of those, they, they hold 90% of the audiences worldwide. So it makes sense that people get a little scared and people have limited time to consume podcasts. However, someone who is enjoying, your show, Andy is not gonna be, having the same behavior as when they’re listening to a podcast all about like, you know, kind of gossip or true crime.

They’re primed for learning when they’re listening to your show. So there’s kind of like no intersection. Like people have their behaviors and so they’re gonna stick to their behaviors. And I think that people need to remember that just because you’re not a celebrity, it, it doesn’t. Matter because celebrities, they’re really trying to become very relatable.

Um, ’cause people are really pushing back on a lot of the elements about fame. Everyone wants to be famous, but at the same time they push back on a lot of elements. And so you being a relatable person really has a lot of, um, wins. And so I think that people need to just stay the course. A lot of celebrities, they do one season and they leave.

Leave y’all. Like, it’s, it’s not that much of a deal. Um, but I think that I always see that like people are, are really kind of looking for things to blame on why the show is not growing and don’t let celebrities be the reason why you get discouraged. It goes up and down. Um, but you know, no one will ever choose between your show and the celebrity.

Like they, they have different reasons, different motivations to, um, to listen. So what do you think about that?

I completely agree. I’ve noticed, for me at least, I won’t say, I won’t say everyone when I am having like a low moment in my podcast and I’m like discouraged or, or frustrated, I usually am trying to find someone else to blame. But usually when I’m in that blaming mentality, like nothing gets done, right?

Like I

don’t actually like do anything to move the needle. And so like, sure, I, I will say like I still let myself like throw a pity party for like. 10 minutes or something

like

your feelings.

right? We’re all about feeling our feelings at our house right now. Lot of tiny children with a lot of big feelings. You gotta feel ’em where else they’re gonna come out sideways.

But after you feel those feelings, you gotta move on and you gotta think, okay, somebody is listening to my podcast like many somebodys and they’re enjoying the show, so let’s make sure we keep showing up for them. So then they’ll tell our their friends. And I will slowly grow my show, even if it might not be as fast as a celebrity.

But like you said, a lot of celebrities, they get into it and they’re like, oh yes, of course I need to have a podcast. And then they try it and they’re like, oh, I guess that maybe that’s not as much fun or whatever. But you’re, you’re right, most of the time they don’t last very long. So as long as you can outlast ’em, I think you’re solid.

Yeah. Well also a lot of people get annoyed at the fact that like the ad dollars, the sponsorships go to celebrities because, but they have a big following, like, I’m sorry. If you have a, a small show, you’re not gonna compete on the same level as someone who has a partnership. With like a huge brand, right?

Like, it, it’s not the same. You have different value propositions. And so, um, actually I’m gonna do a plug for the, uh, for these creator that both of us know, I think Justin Moore, um, he has a book called Sponsorship Magnet. If. Anyone is wanting to, to learn more about it. Like, I think that that book is a clear example of getting out of that scarcity mindset and really looking at your content as opportunities and how you can reframe your thinking, um, to, if you’re like wanting to do sponsorships, I think it’s really important, but.

I think really looking at what can you do right now, right? To grow your show. And for most people, I always say this, um, if you were to become famous overnight, you would probably be getting crippling anxiety and overwhelm and analysis paralysis about your next step. So it’s easier to grow slowly.

Steadily, uh, than just like blow up over overnight. ’cause I do have a few people in my network that actually blew up and they were podcast experts and they completely got paralyzed. They’re like, I can’t, like, I, I’ll never make a, a, like a piece of content as incredible as that one. And so it really messed ’em up, uh, for a few months.

And so I’m like, ah, baby, it’s fine that you grow consistently, you get acclimated to, uh, the size of the audience, uh, growing and all that. So just put for thought there.

I. Okay. I absolutely love that. It’s true. It would be overwhelming if like overnight you had like millions of downloads. Like that would be, that would be a little bit scary if it happened super quickly. Yeah. And truly one thing that I love that you said that I wanted to touch on is that, well, you kind of said it and I wanted like dive into it. Is that like. Sponsorships can come in a lot of different ways too. Like it’s not just Ford coming

to and being like, Hey, I wanna sponsor your podcast. It truly could be like a subscription version where like you, you’re like, Hey, if you want extra content then you know, pay me $5 a month or something like that.

I have a client who is starting a. Business podcast, but it’s specifically talking to like small town businesses that want to grow in a small town.

And she was like, I want to make money, but I want to have a lot of free content too. And I said, have you considered a subscription like base where you know you have your free podcast, but you also have extra content and it’s like $5 a month?

And she was like, I, I’ve heard of that before, but I never thought it would work for mine. So we talked through it and she was like, oh, so then. Even if she only had, let’s say, 50 people that decided to sign up for the $5 a month, that adds up really quickly, especially when it’s a monthly payment. So you can look at monetization a lot of different ways, and if all of the celebrities are getting all of the ad money, then you can get all of those people that already love you to pay you $3 a month for the next 10 years, and you’ll be sitting pretty in your own way.

Yeah. Or even like local businesses, hyperlocal podcasts have a unique, uh, leg up. Um, and so. Who is in your community, who needs a shout out, and they don’t have the capacity to start a podcast, but they love the idea of being kind of partner up with the cool kids, the podcasters. Um, so there’s so many opportunities there for, for our audience to think about, like, who is within my network?

Who are these people that already are prime, that know, like, and trust me, um, that I could go and, and promote my podcast and, and get them, uh, get them involved. ’cause. You really have control. You have agency over a lot of the results of your show. And so a lot of what we talked to on, on the episode has been really about like understanding that there’s a a million different ways to grow a podcast, but like, which ones are the ones that are the most exciting for you, the most sustainable, and the ones that, um, you can find a unique angle and win like that.

I completely agree. Well this has been absolutely delightful. Thank you for being on the show today, Anna.

Well, thank you for having me. I’m very excited to, to uh, hear what the listeners ahas have been. If you’d like to listen, uh, to my show, it’s called the Podcast Space Available on all podcast platforms including YouTube.

But the easiest way is to visit the podcast space.com/podcast and you can find all the links to show notes, all of the resources that, uh, you, you can dream of. They’re all there. So I would love to, to find people that are looking for. For like a way to grow their show in a way that is sustainable and practical.

And that’s, those are all the things that I do share on the show.

Definitely. And also Anna has a fabulous Instagram, so you should go follow her over there too.

Yes. Say hi there. That’s the one main place that I, I am almost every day sharing like, at least one itty bitty piece of content or one tip that, um, people can implement right away. So thank you for the plug, Andy.

Of course, I I, I have a. Interesting relationship with Instagram. I love Instagram stories to keep up with people, but I do not like posting on Instagram. It is just not my thing at, at least not right now. It’s just not, it’s not sustainable for me. But I will hop on and like go see why Anna’s up to and go see all of my other friends, and then I’ll hop right back off

Honestly, it’s giving toxic boyfriend vibes. That’s what it does. Because he

kind of.

you’re posting and it’s like, nobody’s seeing this, but like, well, it’s not that nobody is like user behavior is changing and people are getting more used to kind of just consuming passively versus like actually engaging.

So that’s why you feel so hard. But it’s the one place where most people wanna hear about their favorite podcast, uh, hosts. So. Just,

true.

what the data says.

So we follow the data.

And Anna also another like plug for why you should follow Anna is she has so much data and it is very well researched and I am so grateful every time she talks about something like she’ll be like, Hey, there was this new study. And I’m like, great, thanks for telling me about it.

Yes. I mean, I have to, like, I I, I dropped so many pieces of data throughout this whole episode, uh, because it’s true, like data tells the story, but also data helps us make like, important decisions about our content, and it like removes that emotion out of the, the decision making process, I feel.

Yeah, definitely. And, and when there’s less emotion, it usually makes it easier to make a decision or to just move forward sometimes.

So I love it. Okay. You’re amazing, Anna. Thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you for having me.

 wasn’t Anna amazing. Her energy and insights about sustainable podcasting always light me up. If all this talk about SEO collaboration and strategy has your wheels turning, here’s one simple step you can take from this episode. Connect with one other podcaster in your niche this week.

You could comment on one of their posts on social media, reply to one of their stories on Instagram, or maybe you send them a quick email replying to one of their newsletters, telling them how awesome that newsletter was.

Seeing fellow podcasters as collaborators instead of competitors will make podcasting so much more fun, and it will help your show grow faster too. If you have a podcast friend who could use Anna’s encouragement today, would you share this episode with them?

You never know what idea it might spark.  next week I’m teaching you how awesome email is to build genuine connection with your listeners.

Thanks for being here, and I’ll see you next week.